22LR Group shooting

[tentoten]

G'day everyone.
Is 22LR Group Shooting a big organization in your clubs ?
And what distances do you shoot at ?
All the best to everyone

 

[tim simbari]

G'day everyone.
Is 22LR Group Shooting a big organization in your clubs ?
And what distances do you shoot at ?
All the best to everyone

99% of rimfire benchrest shooting is score @ 50 yards/meters. There used to be some group shooting years ago....it largely died out.

 

[tentoten]

99% of rimfire benchrest shooting is score @ 50 yards/meters. There used to be some group shooting years ago....it largely died out.

What were the reproaches ?

 

[tim simbari]

What were the reproaches ?

Well it seems to be largely a case that the score sanctioning bodies gained traction much quicker and became more popular among shooters, even club matches are almost universally score.
I suspect that accurate measurement of groups being tougher and taking longer was probably a factor.

 

[22shooter]

Backers

Lack of may have made score more attractive.

 

[tim simbari]

Lack of may have made score more attractive.

Yeah, that probably didn?t help.

 

[stiller]

Group shooting

is struggling in lots of areas. To really do group shooting competitions right, you need moving backers so people can't cheat. You also need an experienced person to measure for you that is used to using the calipers with the etched reticles etc. I don't know how many poorly measured groups I have seen in my life. Some of the pics people post of groups they are measuring at 0.200 that has paper between the holes is laughable. I don't ever see group shooting coming to 22 rimfire again. We seem to struggle enough to just find places and people to put on score type of matches, which are about 5 times less effort (ask me how I know).

 

[tentoten]

Thank you

G'day,
I want to thank each and every one of you.
Over here, group shooting might not going to last long for the reasons you mentionned. Will see if it is just a straw fire.
But at the moment it gains new experienced shooters/referres/organizers from CF.
As an organizer myself, I appreciate that.
And it is an different pleasure as a shooter too.
Thank you for the time you took to answer.

 

[JG26_Irish]

Group shooting

The Snipers Hide forum in its Rimfire Section has carried on a form of group shooting postal match for several years called the 6x5 challenge. It is six, 5-sh groups each fired onto six bulls all located on one card and all fired in succession for a total of 30 shots per match. These are shot at 50, 100 or 200 yds with no time limit. All are shot from prone or bench with sand bags or bipod. Groups are measured center to center in inches an MOA and the average group size and the best group are both posted and recorded. It still suffers from variance in group measurement and you sometimes see groups that are claimed to be smaller than they possibly could be. Still if you approach it right and consider it a test of yourself and your rifle, it is one of the toughest challenges of all. It is also a goo way to compare models of rifles over a small sampling. The 6x5 does not declare winners or losers. You just shoot your card and post the results for all to see. Most are shot outdoors but if indoors it should be noted. Ammo type, optic and wind/temp conditions are important to note. You are really competing with yourself on this one.

 

[404tbang]

The Snipers Hide forum in its Rimfire Section has carried on a form of group shooting postal match for several years called the 6x5 challenge. It is six, 5-sh groups each fired onto six bulls all located on one card and all fired in succession for a total of 30 shots per match. These are shot at 50, 100 or 200 yds with no time limit. All are shot from prone or bench with sand bags or bipod. Groups are measured center to center in inches an MOA and the average group size and the best group are both posted and recorded. It still suffers from variance in group measurement and you sometimes see groups that are claimed to be smaller than they possibly could be. Still if you approach it right and consider it a test of yourself and your rifle, it is one of the toughest challenges of all. It is also a goo way to compare models of rifles over a small sampling. The 6x5 does not declare winners or losers. You just shoot your card and post the results for all to see. Most are shot outdoors but if indoors it should be noted. Ammo type, optic and wind/temp conditions are important to note. You are really competing with yourself on this one.

Howdy Irish,

That sounds appealing. I enjoy shooting groups more than about anything else. I also like seeing what I can do with old rifles. I saw one of your posts with a Winchester 52 and Balvar 24. Nice looking rifle! I usually end up shooting an Eric Johnson barreled Remington 37 with a Balvar 24. I do have a tuner on the barrel. Anything in the rules that precludes the use of a tuner?

Take care,

Greg

 

[tim simbari]

The Snipers Hide forum in its Rimfire Section has carried on a form of group shooting postal match for several years called the 6x5 challenge. It is six, 5-sh groups each fired onto six bulls all located on one card and all fired in succession for a total of 30 shots per match. These are shot at 50, 100 or 200 yds with no time limit. All are shot from prone or bench with sand bags or bipod. Groups are measured center to center in inches an MOA and the average group size and the best group are both posted and recorded. It still suffers from variance in group measurement and you sometimes see groups that are claimed to be smaller than they possibly could be. Still if you approach it right and consider it a test of yourself and your rifle, it is one of the toughest challenges of all. It is also a goo way to compare models of rifles over a small sampling. The 6x5 does not declare winners or losers. You just shoot your card and post the results for all to see. Most are shot outdoors but if indoors it should be noted. Ammo type, optic and wind/temp conditions are important to note. You are really competing with yourself on this one.

I would say the misrepresentation of group dimension is on the order of some 90% or so, and I have been a group shooter for a long time.
Go through that entire thread and look at the sum total of groups posted with claims in the .100?s that have holes with paper in between them, the order of error is often well above 50%, it is absolutely absurd , why have the whole deal if guys either simply lie or are that clueless ?How bad do some guys need an atta boy ? Renders it as a pretend excercise.
Any time it is mentioned, guys run around with their freaking hair on fire, most knowledgeable group guys simply avoid the aggrevation.

 

[martini]

Postal Group Match

The William Buck memorial postal matches sponsors a monthly "Sniper Accuracy Match" which is very similar to the match described below. 6 Bulls on one target with 5 shots per bull at 50 yards, 22 Rimfire only. Scoring is points awarded for each group and average group size within particular ranges. Match details and targets are available from the match directors at NARPMShooter@outlook.com

While I acknowledge the difficulty in group size measurement accuracy, personally I don't let the difficulties in measuring group size get in the way of shooting groups for fun, but each to his own. At one time rimfire central had an active group competition for 10/22's. I believe disputes in group size were settled by using On Target software but last time I checked it was pretty much inactive. I shot it a few times when I was assembling 10/22's.

As an active prairie dog shooter, I evaluate my prairie dog rifles with groups at 200 yards.

The Snipers Hide forum in its Rimfire Section has carried on a form of group shooting postal match for several years called the 6x5 challenge. It is six, 5-sh groups each fired onto six bulls all located on one card and all fired in succession for a total of 30 shots per match. These are shot at 50, 100 or 200 yds with no time limit. All are shot from prone or bench with sand bags or bipod. Groups are measured center to center in inches an MOA and the average group size and the best group are both posted and recorded. It still suffers from variance in group measurement and you sometimes see groups that are claimed to be smaller than they possibly could be. Still if you approach it right and consider it a test of yourself and your rifle, it is one of the toughest challenges of all. It is also a goo way to compare models of rifles over a small sampling. The 6x5 does not declare winners or losers. You just shoot your card and post the results for all to see. Most are shot outdoors but if indoors it should be noted. Ammo type, optic and wind/temp conditions are important to note. You are really competing with yourself on this one.

 

[JG26_Irish]

Groups SH 6x5

Howdy Irish,

That sounds appealing. I enjoy shooting groups more than about anything else. I also like seeing what I can do with old rifles. I saw one of your posts with a Winchester 52 and Balvar 24. Nice looking rifle! I usually end up shooting an Eric Johnson barreled Remington 37 with a Balvar 24. I do have a tuner on the barrel. Anything in the rules that precludes the use of a tuner?

Take care,

Greg

Greg, there is no restriction on the use of bbl tuners. I had an Ezel tuner on my old Rem 540XR a few years ago and found it to be very effective. I only removed it so I could shoot that rifle in some sanctioned matches which exclude tuners. Tim's comment is valid. There are more than a few guys who cannot accurately measure their groups CTC. I have seen more than a few that were two bullets wide claiming to be in the 1's which is impossible. I used to call them out on it but there is always a pithing match when you question the integrity of any other shooter. In the end I just ignore them and use it as my own personal crucible for testing one rifle against another. I too like to shoot old vintage rifle/scope combos. They are not always the best but it is fun to take a 70 or 80 yr old rifle with an obsolete Unertl, Fecker or Balvar optic and shoot as well as my buddies fancy new rifle. I do this in our local club matches too. Won so many last winter with an 88yr old Win 52 Pre-A that half of the club now owns a 52 of some kind, lol. I have a 60 yr old Annie Super match that is hard to beat when I have ammo that agrees with it. I recently robbed the 20x Unertl off of it to mount it on a 52B to see if it would improve its performance. The rifle shot a perfect score and won its first match beating out a VuDoo, severl nice 52's, a Sako custom with Walther bbl and a few annies. Group shooting is just so hard to consistently measure and that is its biggest flaw. But it you can accept the flaws, it is still fun. I cannot recall what the attached groups measured at 50y but they were small

Irish

 

[404tbang]

Greg, there is no restriction on the use of bbl tuners. I had an Ezel tuner on my old Rem 540XR a few years ago and found it to be very effective. I only removed it so I could shoot that rifle in some sanctioned matches which exclude tuners. Tim's comment is valid. There are more than a few guys who cannot accurately measure their groups CTC. I have seen more than a few that were two bullets wide claiming to be in the 1's which is impossible. I used to call them out on it but there is always a pithing match when you question the integrity of any other shooter. In the end I just ignore them and use it as my own personal crucible for testing one rifle against another. I too like to shoot old vintage rifle/scope combos. They are not always the best but it is fun to take a 70 or 80 yr old rifle with an obsolete Unertl, Fecker or Balvar optic and shoot as well as my buddies fancy new rifle. I do this in our local club matches too. Won so many last winter with an 88yr old Win 52 Pre-A that half of the club now owns a 52 of some kind, lol. I have a 60 yr old Annie Super match that is hard to beat when I have ammo that agrees with it. I recently robbed the 20x Unertl off of it to mount it on a 52B to see if it would improve its performance. The rifle shot a perfect score and won its first match beating out a VuDoo, severl nice 52's, a Sako custom with Walther bbl and a few annies. Group shooting is just so hard to consistently measure and that is its biggest flaw. But it you can accept the flaws, it is still fun. I cannot recall what the attached groups measured at 50y but they were small

Irish

Howdy Irish!

Appreciate the response! Trying to make the older, classic rifles perform above what folks think they can is flat out fun. Thanks for the info, I wasn't sure if the rules precluded the use of a tuner on SH.

Looks like you've got that rifle shooting verrrrrry good. If I recall right, you're in Kentucky somewhere. You could likely beat me with my own equipment. I think you'd like trying a Remington 37 with a Canjar two ounce trigger as opposed to the trigger on your Winchester. And it's already accustomed to an Irish descendant pulling the trigger.

Some claimed group measurements really do produce some head scratchers.......

Take care,

Greg

 

[Concorde]

Our local club (north Alabama) does score shooting but also keeps track of group sizes in a new Precision Rimfire match series that they've started. They use almost NO standard targets -- really makes it interesting and challenging. The first match we did included shooting at aspirin and TUMS tablets at 50 yads. They have four separate scoring classes (open sights, Sporter, Match/Open, and non-22 Rimfire). They change the format a bit every month, sometimes including both 50-yd and 100-yd targets, sometimes prone, sometimes bench. They details are shown at www.PrecisionRimfire.net -- I enjoy it... take a look and let me know what you think!

 

[doclu60]

While I acknowledge the difficulty in group size measurement accuracy, personally I don't let the difficulties in measuring group size get in the way of shooting groups for fun, but each to his own. At one time rimfire central had an active group competition for 10/22's. I believe disputes in group size were settled by using On Target software but last time I checked it was pretty much inactive. I shot it a few times when I was assembling 10/22's.

Martini, your above cropped quote (space saving reasons) is 'kind of' spot on. I played the 25yd group game on RFC. Last time I looked I was still 7th on that list. In it's heyday, I was 3rd. The group shooting was spoiled by people who either could not measure a group, or possibly fudged on the measurements for accolades, which was all you got. After forum arguments over some obvious miscalculations in measured groups, it was an 'honor' system at the time, the moderator of that sub-forum that ran the games changed things up. He instituted a group of 'target meisters' that were familiar with the On Target software and how to measure a group. When that was in place you had to send your target electronically to 3 different 'target meisters' for them to score. The average of the the three 'meisters' were your final measurements and what was posted on the list. My placing was after the 'meisters' were in place.

At the time this was all going on the 'Ultimate 10/22' sub-forum was very different than it is today. Guys were really doing more than just buying some parts and assembling a rifle. That forum has gone from builders really doing DIY work on the rifles and stocks to people that are into 'other stuff', so to speak. I know the moderator there and have shot with him many times. Back then it was kind of a bench/target forum that focused on accuracy and target games. It has since fallen into tactical, parts builders, and other things best suited to some of the other sub-forums in the 10/22 section of RFC.

My entry there was only .001 measured by myself with calipers from what the 'meisters' measured. Groups can be measured without On Target to a very high level. Trouble is, plain and simple, either people want to cheat, or they don't know what they are doing. For that reason, I no longer play group games that are postal or on the 'honor' system. I do shoot groups when testing ammo for competition or hunting.

 

[martini]

Groups can be measured without On Target to a very high level. Trouble is, plain and simple, either people want to cheat, or they don't know what they are doing. For that reason, I no longer play group games that are postal or on the 'honor' system. I do shoot groups when testing ammo for competition or hunting.

I pretty much agree with you. For some years I worked as a quality assurance engineer and had the privilege of working with some very talented inspectors. It is possible to measure group sizes accurately with calipers;however, most of use are not capable of that skill level.

Randy

 

[exarcher]

group shooting

G'day everyone.
Is 22LR Group Shooting a big organization in your clubs ?
And what distances do you shoot at ?
All the best to everyone

NBRSA used to have matches, its been many moons ago,,, I had light custom 50yd agg record! I built several rifles for friends that would have literally demolished that record.. barrels & actions really became awesome. (Unaka Rod and Gun, Johnson City, Tn.) Last time i looked,,, the records did not show up on the nbrsa site,,, guess the purged em... I thought it was a fun game,, not as strenuous as the score games.. but boring to a lot of people...